1. Cameron
   October 2nd, 2008 at 8:56 am

   Most Pentacostals and Charasmatics distort pentacost and ‘charis’ (gifts). Pentacost was mostly about the adding of the 3000 that day, not barking like a dog in the Spirit. Most believe the baptism of the HS in Acts is tounges, when it is often regeneration.

   As far as the gift of tongues goes, 1 Cor 14 makes it clear that if it is done corporately that it is to be interpreted for the edification of the church! This is emphatically clear. Corporate tongues MUST be interpreted.

   Further, the tongues are ‘real’ languages, not gibberish. Let the apostle interpret his understanding of tongues.

   1 Cor 14:10-11 (NASB) “There are, perhaps, a great many kinds of languages in the world, and no kind is without meaning.

   11If then I do not know the meaning of the language, I will be to the one who speaks a barbarian, and the one who speaks will be a barbarian to me.”

2. Phil Perkins
   October 4th, 2008 at 5:58 pm

   Craig,
   Poonen’s biblical knowledge is abominable and there’s no excuse for a man like him to be in the pulpit.

   I won’t take the time to list all the mistakes in what he said here, but I will list just a few. Here are just a few of Poonen’s problems:

   1. Poonen said, “The first time that believers were filled with the Holy Spirit, they ALL spoke in tongues.”

   This is biblically untrue. Many of the Old Testament saints were filled with the Spirit. Just off the top of my head, we know that all the OT writers were guided by the Spirit, else what they wrote wouldn’t be Scripture. But if you want an example of a saint that was filled with the Holy Spirit and the text actually used that sort of language, read Exodus 31. Bezalel was filled the the Spirit in order to build the tabernacle. And there is John the Baptist, filled from the womb. How does someone familiar with Scripture miss this sort of thing even if he read it only once?

   ANSWER: Poonen, like almost all Evangelicals, is UNfamiliar with Scripture.

   2. Poonen said, “The first time that believers were filled with the Holy Spirit, they ALL spoke in tongues.”

   Actually, this may or may not be true, and if Poonen has properly studied the text in either the English or the Greek, he’d know that. While the text says “all”, the antecedant of “they” in verses 1 and 4 may be all in the group around the apostles or it may be Matthias and the 11. Simply reading the passage would make this obvious. The second is more likely according to the context. And then you have the question of the Greek word “pas” which may mean each individual or all as in a group with one or more representatives speaking for them.

   3. Poonen said, “So “tongues” is a temporary gift needed only under the imperfect conditions prevalent on earth.
   This explains why Jesus never needed the gift of tongues. It was because His mind was perfectly pure and because He lived in perfect communion with His Father at all times…”

   So what happened to the doctrine of the Trinity? Jesus, being one in essense with the Spirit and the Father, has complete knowledge of all things including all languages. Thus, he has always all the abilities of the Spirit, including tongues, healing, miracles, etc. He didn’t need the gift of tongues because He already had it. And we know, if we are familiar with Scripture, that all of Jesus’ miracles aren’t listed in Scripture. Therefore, we can’t possibly know that Jesus never spoke in other languages any more than we can’t know that He didn’t ever turn rocks to fish or fish to rocks.

   This is just very bad logic, mixed with lacking biblical knowledge.

   4. Poonen said, “When perfection comes at Christ’s return, there will be no more need for speaking in tongues.
   In heaven, there will be no need for “tongues” – just like there will be no more need for Bible-knowledge or prophecy.”

   This is truly awful.

   Scripture assures us that we will know as we are known and that the Word of God will never fail or pass away. We will have perfect knowledge, including knowledge of God’s Word.

   This is all I will list here now. I agree with most of his conclusions, but much of his writing here is absolutely awful. He is much more familiar with a particular brand of Evangelical theology (not historical Christianity) than he is with the Bible.

   This is damning evidence of both Poonen’s ignorance and his carnal values. That is to say he is ignorant of Scripture, not a good workman to be approved. AND he loves not God.

   Proof that Poonen doesn’t love God is in his biblical ignorance. If he loved God, he’d pursue Him, seeking Him with all his heart. If he did that he’d actually read the Bible as a life habit. Either he doesn’t or he does and he is unable or unwilling to teach it correctly.

   So why is this important?

   Simple. If a teacher can’t teach he ought not. And we ought not look to him since he is disobedient to God. Either he is disobedient in his work ethic or he is disobedient in that he teaches when he isn’t equipped to do so.

   The horrible example of those in the pulpit, but disinterested in biblical accuracy, makes people in the pew unable to discern for themselves and makes them think low quality preaching, teaching, and thinking is okay.

   It isn’t.

   In Christ,
   Phil Perkins.

3. Jen
   October 5th, 2008 at 4:32 pm

   Hi. New to your site, and currently attending The City Church, San Diego. We (my husband and I) have had some struggle with this issue, as we don’t feel we have the gift of tongues, but have felt some pressure from our Connect Group to be “baptized in the HS.” We feel that we have received the Holy Spirit, and exercise the gifts He gave us to the best of our ability.

   We are trying to establish the church’s position on this debate, but it seems we cannot get in touch with the church’s headship. I thank you for publishing this on your site, and hope you will not be discouraged by the negative comments you’ve received to date.

   During our Foundations class (we’ve both been saved for more than 25 years, but have a heart for service. TCC requires attendees to complete certain classes so we understand the docterine we serve and in essence support) I posed the question like this:

   “Is it then the church’s position that when one receives the HS one will speak in tongues?” The response I got was that it was their position that we would have the ability should we choose to exercise it.

   That was much more diplomatic a response than we got from our CG leaders. The CG leaders acted as though they were shocked that we do not speak in tongues, and immediately started pressuring us to “receive the HS.”

   Most Evangelicals (charismatic or not) are not evil, and these two guys seem quite bitter, which is not one of the gifts of the Spirit!

   You have to study – and hard. Then pray that God will open your eyes and heart about the questions at hand. He gave you a curious nature, and it is He who can encourage you in your pursuits.

   Just try not to get too caught up in legalism. We are free from the law. It is, however, Satan’s desire to see us question our freedoms so much that we miss the blessing God would have us receive.

   Your right to read and study, Brother. Do so with blessings!

4. Cameron
   October 6th, 2008 at 4:55 pm

   Jen,

   If I may reply… when I went to TCC in Kirkland, I remember hearing the same teaching many times. Namely, “if you’re saved you have the potential to speak in tounges, yet must personally activate the gift”.

   This brings back flashbacks to my past, The CG leaders acted as though they were shocked that we do not speak in tongues, and immediately started pressuring us to “receive the HS.”

   This doesn’t suprise me because this is typical Charasmatic behavior. I’m talking about myself too because that used to be me. I was pushy with tounges because I wanted people to obtain this supposed line of spiritual demarcation. But let’s make a desicion. Which will we place higher on the mantel? God’s Word or our experience?

   According to Scripture, no one can be more baptized then they already are! The only argument otherwise would be Acts 8, yet this is a “textual ambiguity”, and Acts mostly describes what DID happen with the church at that time, not what SHOULD happen. The most we can gleam from Acts which should apply today is the method and message of the preaching of the gospel by the Apostles.

   Again, once we are baptized, we are baptized. We can be more infilled by the Spirit, but NOT more baptized! Eph 4:5 says there is only one baptism.

   Jen, it’s interesting to me that your church elders are more passionate about seeing you speak in tounges then they are passionate about having an interpreter during tounges in the corperate setting, which 1 Cor 14 makes emphatically clear-so much so that it hurts.

   Bless your pastor’s hearts, but the question I have is this: “Bible… how serious do we take you?”

5. Phil Perkins
   October 6th, 2008 at 5:41 pm

   Cameron,
   “Bible…how serious do we take you?”

   And THAT is the question at hand. Very good question.

   Phil Perkins.

6. Phil Perkins
   October 6th, 2008 at 6:18 pm

   Jenn,
   Actually, most Evangelicals are unsaved and the Scripture says as much. Did you know that your divorce rates and teen pregnancy rates are about equal to or greater that the rest of society. Their alcoholism is as high. So is your drug addiction. Evangelicals now include practicing homosexuals in a number of circles.

   On the other hand, the Bible says that without holiness no man will see the Lord.

   You, yourself, have added rules that the Bible doesn’t inlude, calling good study of the Bible “leagalism”. That is the sin of the Pharisees–valuing man-made rules over Scripture.

   In Christ,
   Phil Perkins.

7. Rabi
   October 7th, 2008 at 5:21 am

   There were some criticism without substance about Zac Poonen on this thread.

   Since many reading this site seem to be unfamiliar with Zac Poonen and his ministry,
   have a look at his books, sermons, and bible studies are available for free on the
   Christian Fellowship Church, Bangalore, India website.

   As someone who has been blessed immensely by Zac Poonen’s ministry, I also want to point out a few relevant links.

   Here is a sermon by Zac Poonen on The Gifts of the Spirit, relevant to the topic of this thread. This is part of a set of sermons by him on New Covenant Truths.

   Here is an article on The Truth That We Believe – Zac Poonen which will be of particular interest on the DoctrineTalk website. Another interesting article by him is on The True Gospel and The False.

8. Phil Perkins
   October 7th, 2008 at 8:42 am

   Rabi,
   Yes, he has a big ministry. So does Benny Hinn. And Hinn is a liar, too. I don’t know if Poonen purposely lied in his claims, but if not, he is unfamiliar with Scripture.

   Badly.

   But that’s acceptable in Evangelicalism, it seems. It’s not acceptable to God for a teacher to be so.

   Phil Perkins.

9. Phil Perkins
   October 10th, 2008 at 7:09 am

   To Craig and all,
   I just came back here to pick up a quote for a post I’m writing today at dontadddontsubtract.blogspot.com and I found something out:

   Rabi came in hear and defended Zac Poonen. He was less than honest.

   Rabi is an associate of Poonen! And he didn’t admit that.

   That sort of dishonesty isn’t right.

   In Christ,
   Phil Perkins.

10. Dan Hoagland
    October 11th, 2008 at 7:16 am

    Well all I can say is that I am disgusted by the vitriol being displayed here for the world to see. We all wonder why so many walk away when we can’t even discuss issues with the greatest of all spiritual gifts being foremost on our minds, Love. If some of you guys have it, I don’t see it.
    Yes I know what you will say, if they walk away they were not saved to begin with. You know this how? Babes need milk before meat. When the babes see battles over milk what does that say for us?

    Additionally, how do we bring new believers into the fold with these battles going on?

    I’ll pray for you guys.

11. Mark Kemper
    October 11th, 2008 at 7:26 pm

    Phil Perkins –

    I agree with Dan Hoagland, your posts on this blog are disgusting, because they’re filled with hatred, anger and venom.

    Whatever your position is on the theology of the GIFTS of the Spirit, like speaking in tongues, perhaps you need to meditate on the FRUITS of the Spirit from Galations 5:22-23 — in particular, kindness and gentleness!

    May the Lord convict you, and repent.

12. craig
    October 11th, 2008 at 8:52 pm

    Mark,

    I would suggest to you that your commnet sounds a lot like the type of comment you seem to be condemning…just a thought.

    Guys, I would suggest you stop throwing bombs at each other personally, and attemp to have a fruitful discussion about the doctrine. It is a theology that has a lot of confusion and brings a lot of emotion out of people. My own contemplations on the issue caused me to make the post to begin with.

    I know this is a sensitive subject, but I think it is a bad idea to try and examine each others heart…but look at the theology and focus on that. What you think is hatred, anger and venom or ignorance, scripture twisting nad foolishness may be a lack of clarity because of the commumication medium (the blog). Drive-by calls for repentance may be better served by showing the fruit (patience and longsuffering) you are requesting to see in others.

    Just a thought, since I see the people attacking Phil as not helping their cause (whatever it might be).

13. Phil Perkins
    October 11th, 2008 at 9:06 pm

    Dear Dan and Mark,
    Can you answer the problems I’ve pointed out? If you can demonstrate from the Scripture that I am mistaken, I’ll apologize. If not, it’s your obligation.

    Or are you just “filled with hatred, anger and venom”?

    In Christ,
    Phil Perkins.

14. Phil Perkins
    October 12th, 2008 at 4:41 am

    Craig,
    You’re exactly right.

    I actually agree with Poonen’s conclusions and said so. I’ve simply listed some very bad work in his writing that contradicts Scripture and neither of these guys even deal with it. Instead of being thankful for the heads-up about how sloppy Poonen is, they get angry and tell me all about how evil my heart is, without any evidence at all.

    They refuse to deal with the biblical facts.

    I drew a conclusion about Poonen’s spiritual state, but the evidence is his fruit and the biblical basis is Matthew 7 and John 10. Read these passages for yourselves or I can explain. And there are other Scriptures that apply, but these are a start.

    Phil Perkins.

15. Cameron
    October 13th, 2008 at 10:56 am

    Dan

    Additionally, how do we bring new believers into the fold with these battles going on?

    and

    We all wonder why so many walk away when we can’t even discuss issues with the greatest of all spiritual gifts being foremost on our minds, Love.

    The greatest gift if NOT “wuv” but “love” or ‘agape’. This is a serving and selfless love, not a “wuv” that says we all hold hands and don’t talk about important issues.

    Our Master Jesus was constantly debating and discussing things with Rabbis and teachers of the law.

    Mark Kemper,

    Whatever your position is on the theology of the GIFTS of the Spirit, like speaking in tongues, perhaps you need to meditate on the FRUITS of the Spirit from Galations 5:22-23 — in particular, kindness and gentleness!

    I do agree with you. And also, one of those gifts is faithfulness. How faithful are we to making sure our beliefs conform to everything Scripture has for us? Even tounges?

16. Jennifer
    November 4th, 2008 at 2:13 pm

    Hi Cameron:

    Thank you for your thoughtful reply to my post about a month ago. I believe I have found resolution to my questions at TCC. We are satisfied with the responses we received from one of the senior pastors when we sat down to have open, loving dialogue with him.

    I believe Jesus must be saddened by the things that His people are saying to one another on this board. We, as believers, have an obligation to lift one another up in the Lord, not spew venom and hatred.

    Thank you for pointing out that we can debate one another as brothers in Christ. However, comments like some of the above (not yours, but others – they know who they are) are so hateful and counterproductive to the cause of Christ.

    Thanks again for your post, and your comments are well written. :)

    Jen

17. Kate
    November 4th, 2008 at 7:45 pm

    Not everyone recieves the gift of tounges what about the people that go to church and have the holy spirit in them??

18. Jennifer
    November 5th, 2008 at 8:49 am

    Hi Kate:

    No, what we are debating is the idea that speaking in tongues is the prime or only evidence of having been filled (to overflowing) with the HS.

    Personally, I do not speak in tongues, but have other gifts, such as discernment and prophecy. We are debating whether one MUST speak in tongues as evidence of the indwelling of the HS.

    Hope that helps with your question.

    Jen

19. Cameron
    November 5th, 2008 at 7:52 pm

    Thanks Jen, I’m glad you had a good meeting with the Pastor.

20. Phil Perkins
    November 12th, 2008 at 12:15 pm

    Jenn,
    You sound so bitter and unloving. Why?

    You have never answered the problems. If you have found answers at TCC, why not share them here? Let’s see if they are biblical.

    Start with just one: HOW DO YOU EXPLAIN THAT THE BIBLE SAYS BEZALEL WAS FILLED WITH THE SPIRIT, BUT POONEN SAYS IT DIDN’T HAPPEN FOR ANOTHER 3000 YEARS?

    Come on. Explain it if you’re honest. If not, just you ought to admit the truth.

    Finally this: That first sentence (You sound so bitter and unloving) was simply gratuitous. Do you see how that sort of a statement doesn’t deal with the subject? Do you see how it leads only to anger and not enlightenment? It only serves as an personal insult and the person you insult knows that is all you want to do. It’s the same when you do it. It’s not right is it? When you do such a thing it ought to be true biblically and not just an expression of your bile against someone whom you don’t like. Did you notice how Craig asked us to deal with the problems at hand? Christ never insulted folks all the time, but never without giving solid biblically explanation as to why the insult was true. He never did what you have done repeatedly here.

    You have insulted anyone with whom you disagree without giving any biblical evidence the insults were true. Yet you get mad at some simply for calling sin “sin”. And you have given no evidence that my claims are unbiblical.

    Why not?

    In Christ,
    Phil Perkins.

21. Dee
    November 27th, 2008 at 12:34 am

    Hey all,
    Phil
    Notice Zacs words…He said the first time “believers” were filled.Evidently he is talking about Christ believing Christians not old covenant Jews.Also if you understand the original Hebraic writings the filling in the Old Testament(Jewish Bible)carried a meaning of external overshadowing that was for a specific mission,very much unlike the New Testament filling(continual,total life changing,new covenant)of the Spirit of Christ.If they were the same then OT saints would have the power of Christ fully and not need Jesus.What the risen Christ in Acts 1 promised(fulfilled in Acts 2) is totally different from what God anointed John the baptist with.The “filling or extent of filling” John had while he was with Jesus Christ on Earth cannot be compared to what Christ sent after He asended.

    Also notice he said we wont need “BIBLE” knowledge….which is different from the knowledge of the living breathing eternal WORD OF GOD…JESUS THE CHRIST.Why read the letter when the lover is beside you in all fullness,why do we need the written manual when the instructor is there to first hand tell us His heart???…We will be in perfect understanding we dont need bibles nor our limited understanding of what God wanted to say through it….just like a bride or bride to be needs to research how to please her husband but a good wife with perfect understanding of her husband will not need other material than her husband himself to know how to please him.

    It seems Zac may have failed to tighten every bolt in a teaching designed to help guide seekers of spiritual truth not a comprehensive discourse on the letter of the truth.I do agree that good bible knowledge is most valuable but we must be careful we miss the spirit of the message and not get hung up on the the letter of the message by being overly technical.Remember Jesus would be a law-breaker if judged by the letter of the law…but He kept and fulfilled the spirit of the law perfectly.

    My brother did you see the spirit in which the brother wrote?…Or did you just see that ,even though he made conclusions you agreed with,he was different from you?

    Brother none of what this brother stated shows any lack of love towards God.Your comments MAY suggest that you lack love towards him.Even if you think his biblical understanding was lacking why does that PROVE to you that he doesnt love God?…Paul rebuked Peter for his hypocrocy towards the gentile brothers when he saw the Jews James sent but he never said it was because he never Loved God.Jecus never told the arguing disciples they didnt love God because they misunderstood what greatness in the Kingdom ment ….they lived with the WORD…the Christ and messed up yet Jesus did not judge them as lacking in love for God.You accuse this brother of not loving God because you feel he messed up or misunderstood a many times translated text written almost Two Thousand years ago.Wow thats a big difference.

    Maybe you know this brother and you are enlightening us to his lifestyle…If so thank you and I stand corrected…But if its off this article …it makes me wonder if you have a deep grudge this brother or those who are different from you…even if admittedly agree with them.

22. Phil Perkins
    December 2nd, 2008 at 11:46 am

    Dee,
    I have no grudge. I had only heard his name a few times prior to this. This article is simply bad, chocked full of biblical inaccuracies. Why would you suppose to judge my heart when you can’t answer my objective objections?

    Here is the huge problem in the Evangelical “church” and why you and so many others steadfastly ignore objective truth, but pay all sorts of attention to the inner states: There is little biblical knowledge and little emphasis on it. In fact, relationship and gooey feelings trump truth. It is a mental ghetto. And an emotional swamp.

    You are case in point. You haven’t dealt with even one of the problems Poonen has. Not one. BUT you’re ready to defend him. Why?

    You can’t give a biblical or logical reason. The few things you said are simply stretches. For instance, he claimed the first believers to be filled with the Spirit were in Acts 2. In order to defend this silliness you have said that perhaps he thought only believers after Christ were “believers”.

    If he believes that it only makes it worse.

    Who was the Father of Our Faith? Abraham, remember?

    That was a stupid question. Of course, you don’t remember that. You’ve denied it, demonstrating that you, too, are biblical illiterate. Abraham believed and it was counted to him for righteousness. Have you ever read Genesis?

    Why not?

    I’ll tell you why not. You don’t read the Bible much or you’d have read that. And, the same as Poonen, since I can see that you don’t read the Scripture, I know that you don’t pursue God. And why don’t you pursue God? You don’t love Him.

    The Shamah says, “Listen Israel! Yahweh, our God, Yahweh is one. Love Yahweh your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your uttermost.” Jesus said that the greatest commandment was this: “Matthew 22:37 You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind.”

    You aren’t doing that or you’d not be biblically ignorant. That’s how it’s evident that you and Poonen don’t love God.

    Consider this: How long have you called yourself a Christian? The fact that you know so little about God and His Bible is proof that you have disobeyed the greatest commandment for years without repentance.

    Shame on you, Jenn, and Poonen. Especially Poonen since he claims to be a teacher.

    In Christ,
    Phil Perkins.

23. Phil Perkins
    December 2nd, 2008 at 1:33 pm

    Dee,
    I forgot to mention that the dichotomy you make between the fillings in the OT and the Baptist and that in Acts 2 is not supportable from Scripture. The silliness of it is found in this: You say that one filling is on the outside.

    How does THAT work?

    Give a passage that says one is inner and one is outer. You can’t. And it’s not the historical position of the church, either. It’s a recent innovation made up out of thin air to accomodate Dispensationalism and the tongues nuts.

    That’s what I mean by a stretch. You know it’s a problem, but you’re trying to come up with something–ANYthing–to defend this charlatan. It’s like the Catholics and the Pope. Okay, the Pope has two illegitimate children, but he’s still holy. He says so and I’m Catholic, so that’s all that counts.

    The dichotomy in Scripture is between the empowerment filling for a specific task as in Samson and Acts 2, and the general filling in Ephesians 5:18, which is actually the sanctification done in us and for us by the Spirit by the study of the Word. See the parallel passage of Colossians. And that’s really interesting for this reason: right now in a time of extreme biblical illiteracy in the “church”, we are also experiencing an intense fall off in morals in the “church”, making room for divorcing pastors, practicing homosexuals, and the like. We are not being sanctified, but that makes sense, since we don’t read our Bibles.

    What’s your excuse for doing that, Dee?

    You can’t produce any passage that makes the distinction you have. So why do you state it as a fact? That’s called lying. Lots of preachers have made that up, just like saying that the church started in Acts 2. It fits their theological agenda, but it’s not in the Bible.

    If they weren’t ignorant or outright liars trying to make a theological point, they’d never say such a thing. And the fact that you’ve not checked this out doesn’t speak well of you, either.

    Phil.

24. Dee
    December 2nd, 2008 at 9:55 pm

    So sorry Phil
    If I offened you ..please forgive me.I never ment to judge you…I only pointed out how your speculations of Zac’s love or lack of love towards God seemed bias.I never judged your heart or motives,I dont know you…I only asked because you attacked the brothers love for God.I saw nothing in his teaching that showed he does not love God…even in the points I disagree with or I thought were weak.I believe his over all out come is Truth.

    You accuse me of not loving God….thats not your place to judge.Let my master judge my heart.As the scripture says there is only One judge.You dont know me the least bit and if you claim you do..you are decieved or a deceiver.

    I study the bible very regularly and understand the message of Christ clearly.However you are correct I am illiterate to many things in scripture and depend on a relationship with the Holy Spirit to guide me.That i can humbly allow you to say about me.Please do not confuse my relationship with whatever emotionalism you have encountered with whatever group or groups.

    Phil you may say I emphasize relationship with God.Yes I do….Jesus did….So will I.This does not mean I ignore the written down scriptures…Relationship helps me more so understand it and I do admit I need more of God’s wisdom…so I ask as we are encouraged to in James….wow and God wont fuss and equate it to lack of love for Him…isnt that wonderful??

    The point about believers still stands.Christian was used in my original statement…its an adjective…to show what type of believers I was talking about.Is Abraham considered a Christian??…maybe, if we want to stretch things and get technical about it.I think anyone reading the post would understand what the writer was saying without clearing up every technical loop hole.You even agreed that many his conclusion were in line with your belief.Maybe you would like to retract the statement???I dont know…just a question for thought.

    As for the filling of the Holy Spirit.I admit my explanation could confuse someone.Let me simplify…The Spirit Of God has always been around from the begining.However the kind of infilling of the Holy Spirit on the day when pentecost was fully come (ACTS 2)is different…yes the Spirit is said to have come upon different men in the OT…(Judges 3:10,6:34,11:29,13:25,15:14)also(1Sam 10:10,11:6,and on David in 16:13).God empowered these men for specific tasks.Notice no mention of filling with the Holy Spirit…nor even fruit of the Spirit.I do notice that it states that Bezalel was filled with the “spirit of God”(KJV)…”devine spirit” (NRSV)..common “s”..that tells me its not the same thing as the others.My biblical research of Hebraic text shows me that it actually is a term commonly used to mean “an exellent spirit”(actual hebrew is “a spirit of God”)..not THE Holy Spirit.My findings may be challenged but its not because of lack of research but of different translation and understanding.

    I futher point you to John 7:39.This tells me that there was a difference in the former pouring out of the Holy Spirit and the filling of John the baptist in the womb from what happened in Acts 2 and beyond.The verse explicitly shows that the “believers in Him”(Jesus) would recieve a infilling/out pouring of Holy Spirit unlike any other.This would not happen untill Jesus was glorified.Some say there wasnt a Holy Spirit before that….I disagree whole heartedly with that.So let NO one say I am claiming that.

    What Happened in ACTS 2 and onwards seems to me thats what John’s Gospel was reffering to by believers being given the Holy Spirit.

    Yeah if you understood my point of the filling being on the outside I can see how foolish it would be…lol…lol.thats funny …thanks for pointing that out,so I could correct it or rather explain what I ment.

    I never denied that Abraham is called the Father of our faith.The blessing of Abraham(who was justified by faith because he believed God)came to me,a gentile through Jesus Christ who sent the Holy Spirit that I along with all believers in the glorified Jesus Christ recieved through faith.(Gal 3:14)

    I dont understand why you said I did

    Brother I made these points not for your sake but to let other readers understand what I was pointing out.You call me illiterate in things of the bible…That you may know because you claim so much skill in it.I am no bible scholar…I am just one that loves the Lord and is willing to grow in Him everyday.While the bible is my theological foundation I realize that my God is bigger than the bible…The bible only reveals His nature not create it.The pharasees judged Jesus as one that did not love God and wanted to stone Him because they glorified the Torah above the very God that blessed them with it.

    My brother I must admit that I was a bit offended that you thought I proclaimed a judgement on you and then you proceeded to judge my relationship with God without ever meeting me.Remember Jesus did not judge love for God by our biblical knowledge but rather our obedience to whatever little knowledge of His will we have.I admitted my short sightedness in my posting and also sincerely apollogized for any words of personal offence you recieved because thats what the Lord asked me to do…I obeyed because I love Him above my pride.I pray that if in the future we are to ever discuss any topic that I will never take that route again but one thats in spirit with 1 Cor 13 and Gal 5:22-6:4.

    My dear brother you are entitled to your opinion and beliefs.However if you still think it is your duty to judge my relationship with God here I will have to say I rather not discuss this or any topic any more because as Paul told Timothy..It will be unfriutful and will damage the fellowship by breeding quarrels(2TIM 2:22-26)

    God bless you…pardon any harsh words…I was not rebuking you …just explaining my point.

25. Dee
    December 2nd, 2008 at 10:07 pm

    Hey I am also seeking understanding as to when the church of Christ was born if not in the events recorded in ACTS chapter 2???

    At the same time define what you understand the church to be?

    I must admitt your claims are new to me and interests me.

    If you prefer not to hi-jack this present topic just let me know and we can arrange a private email communication.

26. Phil Perkins
    December 3rd, 2008 at 2:10 pm

    Dee,
    YOU SAID, “You accuse me of not loving God….thats not your place to judge…”

    BUT THE BIBLE commands us to judge one another.

    Read this: 1 Corinthians 5:12-13 For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Do you not judge those who are within the church? 13 But those who are outside, God judges. Remove the wicked man from among yourselves.

    YOU SAID, “The pharasees judged Jesus as one that did not love God and wanted to stone Him because they glorified the Torah above the very God that blessed them with it.”

    BUT THE BIBLE said that the Pharisees didn’t love the Scripture.

    Read this: Matthew 15:1-3 Then some Pharisees and scribes came to Jesus from Jerusalem, saying, 2 “Why do Your disciples transgress the tradition of the elders? For they do not wash their hands when they eat bread.” 3 And He answered and said to them, “And why do you yourselves transgress the commandment of God for the sake of your traditions?

    I understood your point on the filling being outside. It’s just wrong.

    Again you’re biblically uninformed. That’s your fault to, at least, some extent. I suspect you’ve been fed a lot of lies by preachers and Sunday School teachers. That’s typical. Most of them don’t know much, either. Get to work so that you know the Bible. If you don’t you’re in sin. That’s not speculation. It’s the truth.

    John 7:39 doesn’t say anything about there being a difference between the filling of Acts 2 and Ex. 31. Read it. It says the Holy Spirit wasn’t given yet. That’s all it says. Don’t read in. Your ony two possibilities for that passage are 1. It refers to the general filling of Eph. 5, or 2. It refers to the fact that the miraculous filling of Acts 2 hadn’t happened yet. Number 2 is more likely it doesn’t in any way mean that it is a different sort of filling from the OT. I believe the miraculous ability filling of Acts 2 was an initiation for the general filling that is for all believers in Eph. 5.

    You said, “You call me illiterate in things of the bible…”

    O, but you are. You said the Bible says to not judge. But if you had read your Bible through just once you’d have known better. You said that Jesus opposed the Pharisees because they love the Scripture. That’s SO WRONG. He hated them because the disobeyed the Scriptures.

    Just think that through. According to you, we’re supposed to obey the Christ of Scripture by disregarding the Scriptures? Does that make sense?

    You said, “I never denied that Abraham is called the Father of our faith.” Be honest. You said that Poonen wasn’t wrong because we should assume he thought of believers as only those after Christ. You never told us just why we should make such a wild assumption. And if we did that, it only means that Poonen is even dumber in relationship to the Bible than I originally thought. Now you’re changing your story. That’s called lying. Stop it.

    In Christ,
    Phil Perkins.

27. Dee
    December 3rd, 2008 at 9:30 pm

    Phil its no use talking with you because you add or subtract things to or from peoples statements.I cleared up my points for the sake of the readers….not you.. because you only know quarrels not truth.

    I am satisfied that any reader will understand the points and be edified.I have fulfilled my requirements to the readers of this forum and what God has instructed me.

    Your speculations and comments are all fine by me.I disagree with them but you have a right to think whatever you want.I know the Truth and God vindicates me so I wont argue with you.

    Let me say these for readers sake.

    “I believe the miraculous ability filling of Acts 2 was an initiation for the general filling that is for all believers in Eph.5″

    That I believe also.Please reread my post carefully and you will see I did not contradict that.

    Where did i ever say the Bible says not to judge?????…I said its not your place to judge my love for God…thats God’s place not yours.Where did Jesus command you to judge my heart towards God???As for 1Cor 5 Paul was tellings us to judge robbers,the sexually impure,reviler,drunkards and the likes…Judge their actions not their heart.You made yourself “God” to judge my heart towards God.

    …And as for your twisting of words in that last paragraph…Where did i ever suggest that the ONLY “believers” are believers after Christ????I said he was specifically talking about believers after Christ…I never used or suggested the word ONLY…oh why am I even stating this.. any person reading can see this in my posts.

    For any one that reads these postings and are discouraged,by any comment,from serving and accepting Jesus Christ as lord…Remember that He is our perfect example.We sometimes fall short of expressing the love of Christ in our words and debates.However continue seeking Truth in God and you will find that He is love and his love for you will ignite your love for Him once you accept it.His loving kindness draws us to repentance and our Faith,which is worketh by love,in Him will empower you to live a victorious life according to His will.May the Lord continually reveal Himself to you.

    Thank you guys for allowing me to share with you all.

    Brother Phil …as I stated before i wont be addressing you anymore.I may post according to my beliefs and clear up any question others have… but nothing directed to or at you in anyway.

    thank you for your time
    Blessings

28. Phil Perkins
    December 4th, 2008 at 2:20 pm

    Dee,
    You said, “I said its not your place to judge my love for God…”

    But you already admitted that the Bible commands us to judge one another. Now you claim that it doesn’t include one’s love for God.

    Have you not read, “If a prophet or a dreamer of dreams arises among you and gives you a sign or a wonder, and the sign or the wonder comes true, concerning which he spoke to you, saying, ‘Let us go after other gods (whom you have not known) and let us serve them,’ you shall not listen to the words of that prophet or that dreamer of dreams; for the LORD your God is testing you to find out if you love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul.”?

    This is why I know you’re in sin. You don’t study the Bible and you don’t care what it says. Which brings up another test of your love for God we are commanded to use to judge between God’s people and the pretenders. You can read that one in John 10.

    Phil.

29. Phil Perkins
    December 4th, 2008 at 2:41 pm

    Dee,
    I apologize. I’ve been rough on you. Just get in the study and see if I’m right or wrong.

    You are seriously deficient in biblical knowledge. You have a lot of Christianese going on, and that actually gets in the way of biblese. It’s the Bible that you want.

    Do this sometime–sit down at a table with pen and paper. List all the churchy sayings you and your friends say to each other. Keep the list for at least a week because you will remember more phrases and sentences from time to time. Write them all down as they come to you.

    Then another day, look up each in a concordance or a topical Bible. If you can’t find them, what does that tell you? It tells you they probably aren’t in the Bible, doesn’t it? Drop them and never say them again. Replace them with Bible verses and partial verses. If you do find one of your old sayings, like “Don’t judge”, read the entire chapter where you found it. It might not mean what you thought it did. Read enough that you get new Bible verses all the time and don’t try to remember all of them. That’s not necessarily the point. Just keep doing this. You will begin to change. You will see the world through brand new eyes.

    In a very short time you will be amazed at just how silly some of the things you used to believe were. Then start reading the Bible over and over and over. It changed my life. It’ll change yours, too. Read it through at least once a year. Anything less puts you in danger.

    I’m serious.
    Phil.

30. laura
    January 1st, 2009 at 3:45 pm

    Phil,

    I am shocked that you would state that a man doesn’t love God and shouldn’t be a teacher based on the yardstick of your personal opinion. In good conscience, the man state scripture and humbly stated his point of view on a subject he stated was challenging.

    It’s not about being “right”… it’s about having your heart right.

    Please love this man as you’d love a father, a son, and or a brother.

    I’ve had the gift of speaking in tongues for 20 years. I agree with Poonen. It’s a gift – but it should not be the focus. Moreover, I have not “waxed cold” – but I don’t pray in tongues very much. I more focus on the truth of God and His grace in His Sovereignty. I personally find that the greater growth is in growing in the Love of God through understanding of grace. As I grow in that love, I am satisfied. To me, speaking and praying in tongues is a seeking for personal strength and growth spiritually that I find study of the Word of God satisfies.

    I am most satisfied studying and knowing the truth of God’s Sovereign Grace in the Lord Jesus Christ.

    Sometimes when I am praying for others, especially when I pray for them to be healed, I do find that then I do feel moved to pray in tongues – because I really don’t know what to pray for sometimes… and somehow praying in the Spirit is more effective due to my personal inability to know what the Lord knows in such matters. But I would rather, in personal communion with the Lord, know His Word with my understanding and I only pray to know God’s Word. My desire is to understand His Grace, His Sovereignty, His Love… so that I can know Him and the fellowship of His Spirit and be made conformable to the Lord Jesus Christ.

    So though I can speak in tongues or pray in tongues in intercession better stated – I personally prefer the Calvinist churches where God’s Grace is manifest through sound doctrinal teaching of foundational doctrines.

    I find that praying in tongues is more intercessory and is very beneficial because we do not always know what we should pray.

    But I don’t think it is reasonable to denigrate the wonderful gifts of teaching of God’s grace as if speaking in tongues is more important. It is so vital to know the truths of God’s Sovereign Grace and the security of our salvation and the Perfect Love of God the Father in the Lord Jesus Christ which is given as a gift to the elect in God’s Sovereign plan.

    I think you were very mean, Phil Perkins, in your comments for no good reason – it was so lacking in brotherly love – and that cannot be Jesus. I think you should focus on God’s Grace and Love. You may think you are “right” and can attack this brother on his point of view of how he humbly sees the truth and seeks to share the Word of God and his heart with Christians – but I think you should focus on humility, love, and getting your heart right in relationship with God and your brother. He did not attack you. You attacked him for no reason and it was unkind and unbrotherly. I pray God will work in your heart and you will come to know His wonderful grace and love so that you can love others as God has loved you.

    Grace.

31. Jesse Spradley
    January 12th, 2009 at 1:01 pm

    I do not claim to know everything about a particular subject, but am continually trying to learn more about the God that i serve and love.

    I have been following all the comments left and did not want to respond, but felt compelled to do so.

    I am not going to argue any of the facts stated, but have a question for mr. Perkins.

    Have you confronted Poonen personally about his “wrong” teaching?

    I actually agree with you that teachers should know what they are teaching, but at the same time we should confront THAT teacher about what they are teaching.

    The bible says to go to that person… not question his love for God on a blog. When he talked to the pharisees they were present and He was talking to them. Where is Poonen?

    You did not choose to have a relationship with God, He chose you. You were and will continually be a sinner until you are made perfect. All of us, even teachers and bible scholars, make mistakes and have room to learn, that would include Poonen, and yourself.

    You may question a man’s teaching and his actions, but my friend be very careful questioning a man’s love for God.

32. steward
    January 23rd, 2009 at 9:32 am

    In order to understand NT gifts and doctrine you have to be able to prove your stance from the Old Testament. Tongues is the only gift that you do not see practiced in the Old Testament, and you need to figure out, why? You see healing, giving, teaching, prophesying . . etc, but you do not see tongues.

    This is because God put our tongues and our languages under a curse at Babel. In order to reverse the curse, and fulfill Jesus wish for unity in the Church, he needed to override this curse with the gift of tongues.

    I personally believe that tongues is a language at all times. I don’t think it should be “bla bla bla”. Yes, you might not understand what you are saying, but i believe the true gift of tongues is speaking in a real language.

    For those of you who say “no man can understand” are taking that verse out of context. That is talking about in the presence of a Church meeting. Not everyone understands all tongues, so if someone speaks in a foreign language that no one else understands in that meeting, then guess what, no one understands.

    For those of you who think that it is an angelic language, please re-read that passage in chapter 13. Paul is using hypothetical situations in that passage. Who understand “all” mysteries and “all” knowledge – No one. Who has removed mountains? – No one. Who gave their body to be burned and gave everything away and had nothing to live on? – No one. Who speaks in angelic tongues? – no one. There is no need or purpose for an angelic tongue. If God needs to understand your heart, and mankind needs to understand your mind, then what would be the purpose of an angelic language?

    For those of you who use Paul speaking in tongues more than anyone, please understand the passage. How do you know how many gifts the spirit of God has poured out on all in the corinthian church? How can Paul claim that he speaks in tongues more than anyone? Not unless he knows what people do in their closet then he cannot claim that. But if Paul were more educated, and spoke more languages than anyone else, then he can make that public claim. Paul was an extremely educated man, and he would have been able to make this claim without knowing what anyone does in their closet.

    As i said above, you need to prove your stance from the old testament. If you cannot prove your NT doctrine from OT passages, then you need to find some extremely blatant, black and white proof in the New Testament for what you are saying. I have never found a single doctrinal stance that cannot be backed up through the OT. The tower of babel put a curse on man’s tongue.

    - jared

33. Kevin
    January 28th, 2009 at 5:16 pm

    Here’s an interesting article I came accross today. It’s about a high school girl who spoke in tongues and made predictions about her classmates deaths for three days. :o
    http://www.10news.com/education/18209396/detail.html

    It reminds me of the slave girl that Paul encountered in Acts who had a spirit of divination and told the future.

34. disturbed
    June 24th, 2009 at 11:40 pm

    If Phil was leading a bible study I’d be afraid to even say a single word. If I said anything wrong, I’d be blasted or labeled ignorant or deficient. Perhaps I’d be accused of not loving God? Phil, I’m sorry to say and I hope you receive this but you are VERY offensive in the way you speak to people. I don’t see any humility in you. Should I conclude you don’t love God? If a person loves God they are humble in the way they talk to others.

    see below:
    2 Tim Ch. 2 -
    24And the Lord’s servant must not quarrel; instead, he must be KIND to everyone, able to teach, not resentful. 25Those who oppose him he must GENTLY instruct, in the hope that God will grant them repentance leading them to a knowledge of the truth, 26and that they will come to their senses and escape from the trap of the devil, who has taken them captive to do his will.

35. Sharon
    July 30th, 2009 at 4:02 pm

    LOL @ disturbed…

    I wouldn’t be afraid to speak. I would just be annoyed.

    I’m sensing the spirit of pride in Phil’s posts. He also seems to have a problem with Evangelicals. You cannot lump evangelical Christians into one bunch.

    I agree with Poonen’s article. I didn’t notice not one OT scripture in that article so I’m not sure why Phil felt it pertinent to refer to one on the subject of tongues.

    @ stewart

    You are leaning on your own understanding. The Bible clearly states that there are known and unknown tongues. You can pray to God in tongues because that is the Holy Spirit’s way of allowing you to release what’s really in your heart. Sometimes I have no clue what to pray for or how to word my prayers but when I speak in tongues, I am able to verbally express what’s in my heart. I have no clue what I am saying but if I ask God for interpretation, He will let me know what I have said. When a person speaks in tongues in a church, there must be an interpreter present. He/she will be able to interpret the tongues by the power of the Holy Spirit. If a person is speaking a known tongue like Spanish, you don’t need the Holy Spirit for that. You just need to find someone who speaks Spanish which in this day and age, you won’t have a problem doing. Also, your reference regarding Paul is utter nonsense. You are teetering on the line of questioning the Bible.

    In order for people to understand these scriptures, you must be indwelt with the Holy Spirit and pray for understanding.

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