A Tale of Two Responses to Lakeland: Wendell Smith and John Piper
In the wake of my post called “Eat the Meat, Spit out the Bones” Pastor Wendell Smith came out with a blog post called “Scandal and Restoration” regarding the Lakeland Revival and the falling of Todd Bently. The base argument of his post is to not get bitter or disillusioned by the fall of a leader.
My only response is if you don’t exalt men so high in the church (senior pastors), but exalt Jesus, when men fall they won’t leave or get bitter because Jesus will never fall. Also, don’t be so flippant and lazy on false doctrine…especially in your own church.
John Piper, on the other hand, also came out with a blog post talking about the issue. I believe his response is a good warning of the false doctrine, including the ones prevalent in the prosperity gospel and word of faith.
Read Wendell’s Blog
Read John Piper’s Blog
Tags: Pastor Wendell Smith, Prosperity Gospel, Wendell Smith
September 22nd, 2008 at 12:52 pm
My only response is if you don’t exalt men so high in the church (senior pastors), but exalt Jesus, when men fall they won’t leave or get bitter because Jesus will never fall. Also, don’t be so flippant and lazy on false doctrine…especially in your own church.
I really don’t think this is the case at all and I believe your opinion and unauthorized judgment on the doctrine of the City Church to be flawed and untrue. If anything Pastor Wendell is simply explaining that we are all human and we make [and will make] mistakes. As Pastor Wendell says, Jesus is still building His Church, and unfortunately, it’s human beings that make up Its membership and parts. Some people are in positions where their mistakes are magnified. No big deal here.
And regarding the exaltation of man as opposed to Jesus Christ, God puts into leadership position of whomever He wants for whatever purpose He sees fit. Who are we to question God’s motives? Don’t you know what God’s response was to Job’s inquiry? Whether it’s a pastor who is addicted to drugs or a pastor who sexually abuses children, no one can say that God did not use them to reach people on His behalf. I know personally of a pastor who was convicted of many counts of child rape and molestation and is serving time for it right now. Do I doubt the impact God had on people when He used him as a well-spoken youth pastor and an incredible worship leader before his sins became public knowledge? No, I do not. Has it caused people to stumble and fall away? I know it did. But the point is, God redeems us, even from the worst of sins. Besides, doesn’t God consistently claim to be the Ultimate Judge in the end? If we truly believe that, maybe we should let Him do all the judging. Same thing with these two scandals regarding Lakeland Revival and Mike Guglielmucci. Pray for them, hope they humble themselves and lay broken before Him, and work out their forgiveness with God.
Through these disheartening scandals and times throughout the Church’s history, we have been saddened and discouraged. But despite that, we never lost our faith, love, and hope in Jesus Christ and that’s all that really matters anyway.
All have sinned and fall short of God’s glory, right?
September 22nd, 2008 at 2:38 pm
Scott,
Your premise that we are to not question doctrines or pastors because they are all sent by God is ridiculous. Would you tell that to the Isrealites who followed the false prophets, even the lying spirits? Their way was one of perdition. God even sent some of the lying spirits to test their hearts.
The new testament constantly warns us that false teachers would come and that we should be on the watch for them…and even in the last days their lying ministries would be marked with lying miracles.
If you knew the pastor was molesting kids, and did nothing…do you think God would be pleased with you when you stand before Him on judgement day when speaking up would save one kid from being molested? Of course not! It is the same with false doctrine.
In fact, we are to stand up for what is right…not sit idly by with your hands over our eyes and ears singing kumbaya.
The prosperity gospel is one of the offences contrary to the doctrine handed down by the Lord, and we will mark it and avoid it according to Biblical principles.
The bible warns us of those who will not listen to sound doctrine, but heap up teachers for their itching ears (prosperity conferences?)…and lo, we are in those times. Watching people who shipwreck faith and lead people astray as if they are of God…what an abomonation. God NEVER claimed these people…
Just because someone claims to be “of Christ” does not make them untouchable…the Apostles had to warn of these charlatins 2000 years ago, it is no different today – except maybe it is worse.
September 23rd, 2008 at 7:44 am
Scott,
Your premise that we are to not question doctrines or pastors because they are all sent by God is ridiculous. Would you tell that to the Isrealites who followed the false prophets, even the lying spirits? Their way was one of perdition. God even sent some of the lying spirits to test their hearts.
They knew they were false prophets yet they chose to follow and believe what they said. Last time I checked, Pastor Wendell never claimed to be a prophet. And one way to know if he is, someone would undoubtedly step up and proclaim that he is indeed false. And no, it can’t be just anyone either. This person would have the absolute authority of Jesus Christ. Are we to assume that you are calling yourself this prophet who is of God? And that God spoke to you to “out” him? That you are like Elijah and Pastor Wendell is the false prophet of Baal? For someone so intent in pursuing “sound” doctrine, you don’t really seem to follow the words of the Bible that well yourself. You should know, as well as most other people who pour over the Holy Scriptures, that we have no authority to make any illicit claims against a pastor. It’s not our position to do so. And even if Pastor Wendell was indeed committing heterodoxy (which he is not I assure you), then it would be up to the Church –the board of elders and the congregation as a whole to demand Pastor Wendell to step down and recant his heretical teachings. It’s not your place to criticize and pass judgment on him. Do you really believe that God is happy when people do things like this? I believe it makes Him most sad. It’s bad enough that Christians have enough enemies in this world, but when you have Christian on Christian fighting, that above all else is the most pathetic. How can one claim to love Christ when one is unable to follow his second most important command?
The new testament constantly warns us that false teachers would come and that we should be on the watch for them…and even in the last days their lying ministries would be marked with lying miracles.
I absolutely agree with you that we should be on guard for false teachers. But I’m sorry. I don’t see that in the leadership of the City Church. All I see is a Church that loves God and prays very earnestly, and the latter isn’t something typically found in most American churches. You can think what you like and try to interpret scripture anyway you see to fit it how you think it is and should be. Yes, that’s your prerogative. But don’t you think that will bring you closer to being a “false teacher”?
Come time when you stand before God, He’ll be the one to ultimately sort things out and then you will certainly understand.
If you knew the pastor was molesting kids, and did nothing…do you think God would be pleased with you when you stand before Him on judgement day when speaking up would save one kid from being molested? Of course not! It is the same with false doctrine.
The thing is no one knew that he was doing this until God exposed it. According to an elder at the church, God revealed it to him (the elder) that something was wrong with the pastor. So the elder, who was very close to the pastor, confronted him and that’s when the he confessed. Only then did the church leadership find out about these horrible acts that were committed by the youth pastor. As one would expect they dealt with it quickly and properly. When the senior pastor broke the news to the congregation, most were in disbelief and in shock. Some left the church and some left God altogether. So all in all, no one knew about it until God uncovered it. He chose to do so when the time was right and those in positions acted accordingly. The good news is, the church he was a youth pastor at is still going strong. God is using them and continues to bless them as well.
Why God didn’t disclose it sooner to save people a lot of heartache is not something I can answer, but regardless, it was all done in His time according to His plan. So yes, we should and would stop anything like this if it were to happen so long as we know about it. But we cannot accuse a pastor of something unless we have cold-hard evidence to back it up with God’s authority cementing it. But as you well know, many things are done in secret and only through God’s grace will things of this magnitude be revealed.
For the most part, I don’t really care that Marilyn Hickey or TD Jakes comes to City Church. I don’t care that they may be a part of the Word of Faith family. All I know is they are trying to reach people to share with the lost the precious and priceless Gospel of Jesus Christ. And despite the reservations one has about they way they handle their ministry –it’s more than you or I can do combined.
In fact, we are to stand up for what is right…not sit idly by with your hands over our eyes and ears singing kumbaya.
To an extent. Are you calling Christians to become militant like the Islamo-fascists out there? Shall we declare “Jihad” against our Christian pastors and leaders simply because we disagree with a few parts of their ministry? I’m not sure which issue you have the biggest problem with when it comes to Pastor Wendell, but I do agree in Biblical healing [meaning I don’t believe that God wants to inflict us with diseases] and I do believe that it is my duty as a Christian to give part of my income to take care of my church, which in turn is the responsibility of the church elders to do what seems right. Whether taking care of other churches and helping the poor and less fortunate. Paul did it as you can read it in Corinthians and he set the example that we should follow.
Romans 16:17
Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them.
The prosperity gospel is one of the offences contrary to the doctrine handed down by the Lord, and we will mark it and avoid it according to Biblical principles.
The bible warns us of those who will not listen to sound doctrine, but heap up teachers for their itching ears (prosperity conferences?)…and lo, we are in those times. Watching people who shipwreck faith and lead people astray as if they are of God…what an abomonation. God NEVER claimed these people…
Just because someone claims to be “of Christ” does not make them untouchable…the Apostles had to warn of these charlatins 2000 years ago, it is no different today – except maybe it is worse.
So I’m kind of confused on your position here. Are you saying that God wants His children to be poor and miserable financially? Are you implying that God hates it when His children become wealthy? If that is the case, that really makes me sadpants. I know that God loves us. I mean, He loves us so much that He sacrificed Himself for our nakedness, our shame, our stubbornness, our diseases, and our affliction and beyond. If He was willing to endure all that for us who certainly didn’t deserve it, how could one possibly believe that He doesn’t want to bless us with good things?
I do agree with you on one thing. I do not believe it to be Biblical when people say you’ll get a new car and a new house and filled up bank accounts if you give money to a ministry, Christian organization, etc. That I have an issue with and even when thinking about it, makes me a little upset. But that isn’t something that Pastor Wendell or anyone else at the Church has said. They even said themselves, that we don’t give for self-gain –we give because God wants us to bless His kingdom and to further it so we can bless other churches and peoples as well. I don’t tithe for a new car. I don’t give offerings because I feel like I’m compelled to. I give because I want to. God has blessed me with so much. Good health, great relationships, a beautiful wife devoted to me and deeply in love with the Lord. I could go on and on as well I’m sure you could too. God meets all of my needs. Because of the blessings that He has blessed me with, I have no issue in helping out in any small way I can. God tells us to take care of the widowed, the orphans, and the strangers/aliens. How can the Church of Christ do so without active participation from Its members? Of course God could make a ton of whatever resources He needed or wanted appear out of thin air and we could distribute that as a Church. But God wants to see what’s in our hearts. He wants to see how much faith we really have in Him and actively give according to His Holy Name. The only time in the Bible God ever asked us to test Him was in this; in giving back to Him cheerfully and willingly what is already His. Even if God didn’t require any money from me, I’m still more than willing to give it up so I can help in any way I can. I don’t want to get caught up on the issues of it. Christ commissioned me to preach the Gospel and I firmly believe this is one small way of doing it. In many cases and instances, my money will go further than I ever could and it is my hope that God will bless it and multiply it seven fold.
Now, if Pastor Wendell rolled up to church in a Rolls Royce and a $1000 Armani suit, are you telling me that it’s your [or mine for that matter] authoritative position and place on what God can bless people with? Are you telling me that you have the authority to criticize God for lavishing upon His children? No you are not and no you cannot (neither am I nor can I).
Personally, I’d hate to see any respectable pastor in a really fancy car. Not that they don’t deserve it, but for this exact reason. It can be very divisive. If that’s the case, the pastor should have more than enough sense to get rid of whatever could cause a church member to stumble. If he or she refuses to do so, then yeah, we would definitely have a problem…
Again, they may not be “untouchable” to the elders and congregation of the church, but they are certainly off limits to you and me in the unbiblical way you go after any pastor like this. There is no position in the Bible that allows you to confront and criticize any pastor of a church, unless as I stated before in the story above, where God revealed it to you first [literally you hearing God’s voice physically and not trying to manipulate scripture as you see fit] they are committing abominable sins and/or preaching pure heresy; direct contradiction from God’s Word. And even if that is the case, again you have no authority to criticize in the manner that you are. I know for a fact, God isn’t too thrilled.
1 John 2:19
They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.
Again, using very vague Bible verses to get a point across that is practically grasping at straws. I wish you would have quoted verse 18 as well because it simply makes more sense when read in the complete context as John wrote it.
18 Little children, it is the last hour; and as you have heard that the[a] Antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come, by which we know that it is the last hour.
19 They (meaning the antichrist) went out from us, but they (antichrist) were not of us; for if they (antichrist) had been of us, they (antichrist) would have continued with us; but they (antichrist) went out that they (antichrist) might be made manifest, that none of them (antichrist) were of us.
“They” in verse 19 that you are referring to are those so-called antichrists as I have simply pointed out. You are misinterpreting the Bible if you assume “they” to be Pastor Wendell or Pastor Judah or any other pastor you disapprove of simply because they believe in a God that heals them or requires God’s people to support their local church by giving tithes and offerings.
In all truthfulness, “they” is referring to people like Mohammad, Hitler, David Koresh, and anyone else who is a self-proclaimed messiah (or worshipped as one) or one who removes the true deity of Jesus Christ and slanders Him. “They” also refers to people who turn away believes from the truth with tricky language and false accusations. I have yet to witness that from Pastor Wendell’s pulpit.
Last time I checked the doctrine that City Church laid hold to claims that Jesus Christ is not only fully human, but fully God at the same time as well. Jesus Christ is God incarnate, God in the flesh. That’s exactly what the Bible says and I don’t see any anti-Christ in that. If anything, it’s more Pro-Christ than anything else. So the verse that you’ve quoted doesn’t really fit correctly as well as you’d like it to.
Matthew 7:21-23
Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
Again, you’re using Bible verses out of context. Those people who try to enter God’s kingdom are the CEOs of church. The “Christmas Easter Only” Christians. Or Christians who claim to love God, yet fail to follow His ways and live life in obedience to Him. How can we profess to love God with our lips and hands, but our hearts are far away, stuck in the iniquity from the night before? How can we say we love God, yet our mouth just cursed at someone or cut someone down as opposed to building them up? And yes some will be absolutely on fire for God for a time. But due to personal reasons, whether controllable or uncontrollable, their passion and fire for Christ fizzles out and they backslide and return to their ways. Some do come back to the Lord to stay with Him till the very end. And there are those who sadly, do not. These are a few examples of what this verse is making referencing to. Not pastors like Pastor Wendell who is deeply in love with Christ. Or Marilyn Hickey who is trying to reach Moslems with God’s Good News. Would you prefer that she not do so? Would you prefer that she do nothing at all for those lost souls, desperate for God’s love? If she doesn’t go to Sudan and Egypt like Christ commissioned her to, are you willing to go in her stead?
September 23rd, 2008 at 7:52 am
Craig, can you delete this comment and the one above? I will repost a corrected response.
Thanks.
September 23rd, 2008 at 7:53 am
Scott,
Your premise that we are to not question doctrines or pastors because they are all sent by God is ridiculous. Would you tell that to the Isrealites who followed the false prophets, even the lying spirits? Their way was one of perdition. God even sent some of the lying spirits to test their hearts.
They knew they were false prophets yet they chose to follow and believe what they said. Last time I checked, Pastor Wendell never claimed to be a prophet. And one way to know if he is false anyway, someone would undoubtedly step up and proclaim that he is indeed just that. And no, it can’t be just anyone either. This person would have the absolute authority of Jesus Christ. Are we to assume that you are calling yourself this “real” prophet who is of God? And that God spoke to you to “out” him? That you are like Elijah and Pastor Wendell is the false prophet of Baal? For someone so intent in pursuing “sound” doctrine, you don’t really seem to follow the words of the Bible that well yourself. You should know, as well as most other people who pour over the Holy Scriptures, that we have no authority to make any illicit claims against a pastor. It’s not our position to do so. And even if Pastor Wendell was indeed committing heterodoxy (which he is not I assure you), then it would be up to the Church –the board of elders and the congregation as a whole to demand Pastor Wendell to step down and recant his heretical teachings. It’s not your place to criticize and pass judgment on him. Do you really believe that God is happy when people do things like this? I believe it makes Him most sad. It’s bad enough that Christians have enough enemies in this world, but when you have Christian on Christian fighting, that above all else is the most pathetic. How can one claim to love Christ when one is unable to follow his second most important command?
The new testament constantly warns us that false teachers would come and that we should be on the watch for them…and even in the last days their lying ministries would be marked with lying miracles.
I absolutely agree with you that we should be on guard for false teachers. But I’m sorry. I don’t see that in the leadership of the City Church. All I see is a Church that loves God and prays very earnestly, and the latter isn’t something typically found in most American churches. You can think what you like and try to interpret scripture anyway you see to fit it how you think it is and should be. Yes, that’s your prerogative. But don’t you think that will bring you closer to being a “false teacher”?
Come time when you stand before God, He’ll be the one to ultimately sort things out and then you will certainly understand.
If you knew the pastor was molesting kids, and did nothing…do you think God would be pleased with you when you stand before Him on judgement day when speaking up would save one kid from being molested? Of course not! It is the same with false doctrine.
The thing is no one knew that he was doing this until God exposed it. According to an elder at the church, God revealed it to him (the elder) that something was wrong with the pastor. So the elder, who was very close to the pastor, confronted him and that’s when the he confessed. Only then did the church leadership find out about these horrible acts that were committed by the youth pastor. As one would expect they dealt with it quickly and properly. When the senior pastor broke the news to the congregation, most were in disbelief and in shock. Some left the church and some left God altogether. So all in all, no one knew about it until God uncovered it. He chose to do so when the time was right and those in positions acted accordingly. The good news is, the church he was a youth pastor at is still going strong. God is using them and continues to bless them as well.
Why God didn’t disclose it sooner to save people a lot of heartache is not something I can answer, but regardless, it was all done in His time according to His plan. So yes, we should and would stop anything like this if it were to happen so long as we know about it. But we cannot accuse a pastor of something unless we have cold-hard evidence to back it up with God’s authority cementing it. But as you well know, many things are done in secret and only through God’s grace will things of this magnitude be revealed.
For the most part, I don’t really care that Marilyn Hickey or TD Jakes comes to City Church. I don’t care that they may be a part of the Word of Faith family. All I know is they are trying to reach people to share with the lost the precious and priceless Gospel of Jesus Christ. And despite the reservations one has about they way they handle their ministry –it’s more than you or I can do combined.
In fact, we are to stand up for what is right…not sit idly by with your hands over our eyes and ears singing kumbaya.
To an extent. Are you calling Christians to become militant like the Islamo-fascists out there? Shall we declare “Jihad” against our Christian pastors and leaders simply because we disagree with a few parts of their ministry? I’m not sure which issue you have the biggest problem with when it comes to Pastor Wendell, but I do agree in Biblical healing [meaning I don’t believe that God wants to inflict us with diseases] and I do believe that it is my duty as a Christian to give part of my income to take care of my church, which in turn is the responsibility of the church elders to do what seems right. Whether taking care of other churches and helping the poor and less fortunate. Paul did it as you can read it in Corinthians and he set the example that we should follow.
Romans 16:17
Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them.
The prosperity gospel is one of the offences contrary to the doctrine handed down by the Lord, and we will mark it and avoid it according to Biblical principles.
The bible warns us of those who will not listen to sound doctrine, but heap up teachers for their itching ears (prosperity conferences?)…and lo, we are in those times. Watching people who shipwreck faith and lead people astray as if they are of God…what an abomonation. God NEVER claimed these people…
Just because someone claims to be “of Christ” does not make them untouchable…the Apostles had to warn of these charlatins 2000 years ago, it is no different today – except maybe it is worse.
So I’m kind of confused on your position here. Are you saying that God wants His children to be poor and miserable financially? Are you implying that God hates it when His children become wealthy? If that is the case, that really makes me sadpants. I know that God loves us. I mean, He loves us so much that He sacrificed Himself for our nakedness, our shame, our stubbornness, our diseases, and our affliction and beyond. If He was willing to endure all that for us who certainly didn’t deserve it, how could one possibly believe that He doesn’t want to bless us with good things?
I do agree with you on one thing. I do not believe it to be Biblical when people say you’ll get a new car and a new house and filled up bank accounts if you give money to a ministry, Christian organization, etc. That I have an issue with and even when thinking about it, makes me a little upset. But that isn’t something that Pastor Wendell or anyone else at the Church has said. They even said themselves, that we don’t give for self-gain –we give because God wants us to bless His kingdom and to further it so we can bless other churches and peoples as well. I don’t tithe for a new car. I don’t give offerings because I feel like I’m compelled to. I give because I want to. God has blessed me with so much. Good health, great relationships, a beautiful wife devoted to me and deeply in love with the Lord. I could go on and on as well I’m sure you could too. God meets all of my needs. Because of the blessings that He has blessed me with, I have no issue in helping out in any small way I can. God tells us to take care of the widowed, the orphans, and the strangers/aliens. How can the Church of Christ do so without active participation from Its members? Of course God could make a ton of whatever resources He needed or wanted appear out of thin air and we could distribute that as a Church. But God wants to see what’s in our hearts. He wants to see how much faith we really have in Him and actively give according to His Holy Name. The only time in the Bible God ever asked us to test Him was in this; in giving back to Him cheerfully and willingly what is already His. Even if God didn’t require any money from me, I’m still more than willing to give it up so I can help in any way I can. I don’t want to get caught up on the issues of it. Christ commissioned me to preach the Gospel and I firmly believe this is one small way of doing it. In many cases and instances, my money will go further than I ever could and it is my hope that God will bless it and multiply it seven fold.
Now, if Pastor Wendell rolled up to church in a Rolls Royce and a $1000 Armani suit, are you telling me that it’s your [or mine for that matter] authoritative position and place on what God can bless people with? Are you telling me that you have the authority to criticize God for lavishing upon His children? No you are not and no you cannot (neither am I nor can I).
Personally, I’d hate to see any respectable pastor in a really fancy car. Not that they don’t deserve it, but for this exact reason. It can be very divisive. If that’s the case, the pastor should have more than enough sense to get rid of whatever could cause a church member to stumble. If he or she refuses to do so, then yeah, we would definitely have a problem…
Again, they may not be “untouchable” to the elders and congregation of the church, but they are certainly off limits to you and me in the unbiblical way you go after any pastor like this. There is no position in the Bible that allows you to confront and criticize any pastor of a church, unless as I stated before in the story above, where God revealed it to you first [literally you hearing God’s voice physically and not trying to manipulate scripture as you see fit] they are committing abominable sins and/or preaching pure heresy; direct contradiction from God’s Word. And even if that is the case, again you have no authority to criticize in the manner that you are. I know for a fact, God isn’t too thrilled.
1 John 2:19
They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.
Again, using very vague Bible verses to get a point across that is practically grasping at straws. I wish you would have quoted verse 18 as well because it simply makes more sense when read in the complete context as John wrote it.
18 Little children, it is the last hour; and as you have heard that the[a] Antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come, by which we know that it is the last hour.
19 They (meaning the antichrist) went out from us, but they (antichrist) were not of us; for if they (antichrist) had been of us, they (antichrist) would have continued with us; but they (antichrist) went out that they (antichrist) might be made manifest, that none of them (antichrist) were of us.
“They” in verse 19 that you are referring to are those so-called antichrists as I have simply pointed out. You are misinterpreting the Bible if you assume “they” to be Pastor Wendell or Pastor Judah or any other pastor you disapprove of simply because they believe in a God that heals them or requires God’s people to support their local church by giving tithes and offerings.
In all truthfulness, “they” is referring to people like Mohammad, Hitler, David Koresh, and anyone else who is a self-proclaimed messiah (or worshipped as one) or one who removes the true deity of Jesus Christ and slanders Him. “They” also refers to people who turn away believes from the truth with tricky language and false accusations. I have yet to witness that from Pastor Wendell’s pulpit.
Last time I checked the doctrine that City Church laid hold to claims that Jesus Christ is not only fully human, but fully God at the same time as well. Jesus Christ is God incarnate, God in the flesh. That’s exactly what the Bible says and I don’t see any anti-Christ in that. If anything, it’s more Pro-Christ than anything else. So the verse that you’ve quoted doesn’t really fit correctly as well as you’d like it to.
Matthew 7:21-23
Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
Again, you’re using Bible verses out of context. Those people who try to enter God’s kingdom are the CEOs of church. The “Christmas Easter Only” Christians. Or Christians who claim to love God, yet fail to follow His ways and live life in obedience to Him. How can we profess to love God with our lips and hands, but our hearts are far away, stuck in the iniquity from the night before? How can we say we love God, yet our mouth just cursed at someone or cut someone down as opposed to building them up? And yes some will be absolutely on fire for God for a time. But due to personal reasons, whether controllable or uncontrollable, their passion and fire for Christ fizzles out and they backslide and return to their ways. Some do come back to the Lord to stay with Him till the very end. And there are those who sadly, do not. These are a few examples of what this verse is making referencing to. Not pastors like Pastor Wendell who is deeply in love with Christ. Or Marilyn Hickey who is trying to reach Moslems with God’s Good News. Would you prefer that she not do so? Would you prefer that she do nothing at all for those lost souls, desperate for God’s love? If she doesn’t go to Sudan and Egypt like Christ commissioned her to, are you willing to go in her stead?
All for Him.
September 29th, 2008 at 8:35 am
Scott, you said:
Whether it’s a pastor who is addicted to drugs or a pastor who sexually abuses children, no one can say that God did not use them to reach people on His behalf.
James 3:1 says
“My brethren, let not many of you become teachers, knowing that we shall receive a stricter judgment.”
This does not say, “let many of you become teachers, even if you teach half truths and refuse to correct yourself when confronted by other believers, just know that you’ll be judged more strictly”
No, it says let NOT many of you become teachers, etc. If one is not going to be determined to teach the full truth of God’s Word, they should NOT teach.
No one can be a heritic all the time, not even Benny Hinn, thus God can even sometimes use these men. But Scott, what is the Biblical standard we are to hold those who guide the flock? Is it a high standard, or a low one? What should it be?
Scott you said:
Besides, doesn’t God consistently claim to be the Ultimate Judge in the end? If we truly believe that, maybe we should let Him do all the judging.
Yes, Jesus is the final judge of all sin. But Scott this is not an argument that we can’t still make right judgments. If we didn’t use God’s moral law to judge then there would be not bases for repentance. And why Scott are you then judging craig for having this blog? You’ve got one finger pointing at someone and 3 more pointing back at you. The level of one sidedness is off the charts here. You see, we all judge, but usually a slow judgment and biblical judgment is expected of us. What does Scripture teach about judging?
Jesus gives exhortation to judge rightly.
John 7:24 “Stop judging by mere appearances, and make a right judgment.”
Likewise, a judgment about doctrine should not be external, but judged according to our standard of truth in all matters of the faith, Scripture. Would you agree?
January 1st, 2009 at 4:12 pm
Craig,
I read a bit of your communication with Pastor Wendell. With consideration, sincerely, I personally found that you were aligned with truth in some matters in God’s heart as I personally see it, and in some other matters I thought Pastor Wendell was correct.
Now, it could be that I’m wrong on some things and so I’m not the perfect “assessor” of who is right and who is wrong. I think when it all comes out in the wash… we’ll probably all find out that we were each right and wrong on some different matters in the sincerity of our hearts.
So, given that fact, it’s good to speak with sincerity in one’s heart that which we sincerely believe… yet, have grace because even though we think we are right… on occasion, we could be wrong.
I think we should give Pastor Wendell grace, pray for him, and if you feel to share – share so that he may expand his understanding – but also listen so that your understanding may also be expanded if that is what is needed. It may be. That’s always possible.
I think there are always certain lines that must be drawn against wrongdoing. Also, God gives us liberty to leave a church that we have been at for a season and have received what the Lord wills for us to receive… but as we grow and mature and develop… we find that another church is more in alignment with our growth and we can go there and receive more from the Lord and serve as well. Yet, I think it just behooves us all to remember that if we are born of God, we are essentially in the same body of Christ. I think that what I saw of Pastor Wendell’s tone was loving and pastoral and Christlike towards you in the Lord. And I thought that was well stated – even if I didn’t agree with everything he said and thought, myself, you were correct on some points of difference relative the Word – especially the importance of the doctrines of God’s Sovereignty.
Well, I hope you are enjoying your new church… and I hope I haven’t confused the facts of who said what when. :)
Grace.