Tuesday, July 31st, 2007
A reader and commenter named Kara asked a great question on the subject of tongues. This is a subject I have been struggling with since leaving a WOF/Prosperity church where scriptural evidence for doctrines they follow are weak and flawed in many instances. I’ll have to do some study and prayer, then leave some comments.
I think we should have a discussion on the subject! If anyone else wants to have a discussion on doctrine, feel free to do the same thing Kara did (give some detail on what you want to discuss, not just say “tongues”). Below are Kara’s questions and comments:
Hi Craig -
Since this is considered a ‘place to discuss Christian doctrine,’ can I make a suggestion for discussion? Really, the suggestion comes from my own confusion about the subject – tongues. I feel that Word of Faith/Prosperity/Healing/etc beliefs are also closely tied with speaking in tongues – it seems that they are all bound together in the same package in most Pentecostal/Charismatic churches. Well, all extra-biblical revelation knowledge aside (please!), I am confused as to what the Bible instructs on the subject. I have done lots of research and read points from all sides on the subject – but bottom line, I want to know, within context, what others think about things such as
- Praying in tongues as a prayer language and
- The argument that states we should pray in tongues because it is a language that Satan cannot understand (sorry, can’t seem to find this command in the Bible),
- Baptism with the evidence of speaking tongues vs. the gift of tongues (is there a difference according to scripture?)
- The whole argument of hermeneutics and tongues – are tongues speaking in foreign earthly languages as suggested at Pentecost, or is it unintelligible babbles as suggested by charismatics today, or could it be both?
My question does not revolve around whether tongues exist as a gift today – I am on the fence about that and can see both arguments for cessation/continuation. I guess I am more of a moderate between the two right now – I ma not afraid to say that I just don’t know the answer. I know that I don’t speak in tongues, and I never have. But for all the people around me that do/think they do – are they really experiencing tongues as it is displayed in scripture, or are they making up their own version based on their experience? Just wondering what you and the CBC blog crowd have to say about the subject, if you are interested in talking about it. I know I could really benefit from some honest, compassionate debate – so I think others probably would benefit too.
I would talk about it more on my blog – but it is more for personal use, not a forum for theological discussion. I have lots of family members that are not believers who read my blog just to find out what is going on my life – so this discussion would probably freak them out and deter them from the small amount of God that I am exposing them to on my blog. It is having a positive impact so far – so I would hate to lay it on thick and have them all tune me out. I guess that is why your blog is here!
Thanks and no pressure – I will still read this blog anyways.
Kara
Tags: Speaking in Tongues
Monday, July 23rd, 2007
The City Church has invited Rabbi Daniel Lapin to speak at their upcoming money conference they call the “prosperity with a purpose” conference. Last year the main speaker was Leroy Thompson (see this post for more info). For those of you who have not had the pleasure of attending a prosperity conference, let me give you a breakdown of what you can expect.
- They bring in teachers from all over the world to tell you God wants you to be rich.
- They then tell you to give the money to them, and it is as if you gave your money directly to God.
- They take a big offering (many of them).
You might ask yourself, why would they have a Jewish Rabbi teach prosperity?
- Does a Jewish Rabbi believe Jesus is the Son of God? – No
- Does he believe we are saved by grace through Jesus Christ? – No
- Does he believe Jesus rose from the dead? – No
- Does he believe Jesus is the way, the truth and the life? – No
- Does he believe Jesus is returning again? – No
- Does he believe God wants us to make lots of money? – Why yes, so lets have him speak at our conference!
Can you imagine the Apostle Paul inviting a non-Christian Rabbi to speak at his church – and for money no less! Let me summaries it with a scripture:
For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables. 2 Timothy 4:3-4
Updated 7/25/2007
In case it wasn’t clear on where Daniel Lapin stood on Jesus Christ (the cornerstone of Christianity) I went to the following web page to see what Rabbi Daniel Lapin said: http://www.towardtradition.org/index.cfm?PAGE_ID=195
This is toward the bottom of the page:
Question: Dear Rabbi, I have heard you and Michael Medved for years and respect you very much for your support of Christianity. What puzzles me is with so much knowledge of Christ and his claims why have you never accepted the Lord Jesus as Savior?
Answer: Hi Bruce Thanks for writing–actually I have very little knowledge of Christ and his claims–I do have a lot of knowledge of the Torah and of Judaism with which I am in the midst of a love affair. I also love America’s Christians… they are the ones who built America and are the ones who give it its durability and beauty. Hope this helps to ‘de-puzzle’ you. Warmly Daniel “your rabbi” Lapin
Tags: Prosperity Gospel, The City Church, Wendell Smith
Thursday, July 12th, 2007
I ran across this report in Christianity Today of how the prosperity gospel has been spreading across Africa faster than any other religion. The main person discussed is Pastor (Updated 7/13/2007 from Michael to David) David Oyedepo, the leader of a health and wealth church promising wealth to all Christians (sounds familiar). He has 12 pillars of the Church (just like the City Church), and one of them is “prosperity”.
Oyedepo teaches that “the Word of Faith is the key to triumphant living,” and he lists “prosperity” as one of the 12 “pillars” of his ministry (others include “healing,” “success,” and “the supernatural”). But he also preaches salvation through Jesus Christ to millions and has launched a dizzying array of ministries offering hope and a better future to Nigerians.
Here is a pastor who opposes the prosperity arm of African Pentecostals:
David Oginde, senior pastor of the 10,000-member Nairobi Pentecostal Church, believes he could triple his membership by promising wealth. “But if that is all I am teaching, then I have lost the message,” he says. “The kingdom of God is built on the Cross, not on bread and butter.”
Oginde sometimes counsels Christians burned by health-and-wealth preachers. One student “planted” his school money as a seed offering, then was thrown out of college for not paying tuition. “I gave my money to God, but it has not come back,” the student said. Oginde replied, gently, “You did not give your money to God.”
The article covers both sides of the aisle pretty well, but I think we, as Christians, need to discuss the scriptural evidence given for the prosperity gospel. I believe the Gospel of Christ is built on the cross, not prosperity. When people respond at the prosperity churches are the counting the cost of following Jesus, or are they counting the benefits (godliness is a means to gain)?
And anyone who does not carry his cross and follow me cannot be my disciple.
“Suppose one of you wants to build a tower. Will he not first sit down and estimate the cost to see if he has enough money to complete it? For if he lays the foundation and is not able to finish it, everyone who sees it will ridicule him, saying, ‘This fellow began to build and was not able to finish.’
“Or suppose a king is about to go to war against another king. Will he not first sit down and consider whether he is able with ten thousand men to oppose the one coming against him with twenty thousand? If he is not able, he will send a delegation while the other is still a long way off and will ask for terms of peace. In the same way, any of you who does not give up everything he has cannot be my disciple. Luke 14:27-33 (New International Version)
The prosperity gospel preaches the EXACT OPPOSITE of this scripture. They preach if you follow Christ, you can expect to reap a financial, relational, material harvest. That is not counting the cost, that is counting the chickens before they hatch. We are told by some in the prosperity gospel to have expectation and “speak faith filled words” to our circumstances to get the things we want.
 Read the whole article here:
http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2007/july/12.22.html
Tags: Prosperity Gospel
Friday, July 6th, 2007
This is part 2 in a series about false teachers as described in the Bible. You can see part 1 here.
In this article I wish to show the Bible teaches the following:
- We are warned of False teachers many times in the Bible
- Many will follow these false teachers
- False teachers will take your money, while stirring up covetousness in the hearers
- It is a very serious thing to be led astray by a false teacher – we are responsible to seek sound doctrine
“Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves.” Matthew 7:15
Perhaps the most recognized warning of false teachers in the Bible. Jesus warns us to look out for people who look like, sound like, act like and to all outward appearance seem to be prophets of Jesus Christ. The sad part is, they are not of Jesus Christ.
But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction. And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of. And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not.
Peter warns us of the false teachers where:
- They will bring damnable heresies
- Many will follow them
- Make up stories to stir up covetousness (promises of wealth?)
- And take money from the people
Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offenses contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them. For they that are such serve not our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly; and by good words and fair speeches deceive the hearts of the simple. Romans 16:17-18
According to Paul in Romans, false teachers will teach things outside of sound doctrine and with charisma will deceive the simple.
And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many. Matthew 24:11
Again, we see many prophets will arise, and many will follow them.
For there are many unruly and vain talkers and deceivers, specially they of the circumcision: Whose mouths must be stopped, who subvert whole houses, teaching things which they ought not, for filthy lucre’s sake. Titus 1:10-11
It looks like they are after your money again. Look out for those who ask you for money every chance they get. We should be generous and freely give, but I went to a church where the #1 topic was money and how we should give to the church. Not balanced doctrine.
Perverse disputings of men of corrupt minds, and destitute of the truth, supposing that gain is godliness: from such withdraw thyself. 1 Timothy 6:5
Here we have people telling us if we are godly, then we will get wealth. We are told to withdraw from those that teach this message. As an editorial, this is one of the most popular messages preached today, the prosperity gospel. It teaches if you are godly (and they equate tithing with being godly) you will gain wealth.
For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; 2 Timothy 4:3
People will flock to these false teachers because they will speak smooth words to make them feel good. The false gospel will allow them to seek after their own lusts and still feel like they are serving God.
They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate. Titus 1:16
The false teachers will profess to know God, but even their good works are reprobate. This is consistent with the leaven of false doctrine. It permeates and ruins the whole lump.
Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils; 1 Timothy 4:1
Not cool.
Does that sound like a ministry near you? If so, here is our responsibility.
Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. 2 Timothy 2:15
And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God. Romans 12:2
We are to study, pray and search after God’s righteousness. Jesus said:
Blessed are they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled. Matthew 5:6
Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. John 16:13
If we hunger and thirst for God’s righteousness, and search out His will with humility His Spirit will guide us into all truth.
Tags: False Teachers, Prosperity Gospel
Monday, July 2nd, 2007
There has been a lot of good discussion on this blog, and one of these days I will have time to comment on them. I have been busy with the 2 little ones running around, and splitting wood for my parents. I did read this psalm tonight, and it has been one of the most vivid descriptions of the power of God I have enjoyed since I was saved…
Psalm 97
The LORD reigneth; let the earth rejoice; let the multitude of isles be glad thereof. Clouds and darkness are round about him: righteousness and judgment are the habitation of his throne. A fire goeth before him, and burneth up his enemies round about.
His lightnings enlightened the world: the earth saw, and trembled. The hills melted like wax at the presence of the LORD, at the presence of the Lord of the whole earth. The heavens declare his righteousness, and all the people see his glory.
Confounded be all they that serve graven images, that boast themselves of idols: worship him, all ye gods. Zion heard, and was glad; and the daughters of Judah rejoiced because of thy judgments, O LORD. For thou, LORD, art high above all the earth: thou art exalted far above all gods.
Ye that love the LORD, hate evil: he preserveth the souls of his saints; he delivereth them out of the hand of the wicked. Light is sown for the righteous, and gladness for the upright in heart. Rejoice in the LORD, ye righteous; and give thanks at the remembrance of his holiness.
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